When we started the development of this site we were faced with a tough decision. The dilemma involved making the site compatible with Internet Explorer 6.
There were a few reasons for keeping it:
- By being IE 6 compatible we would have a larger audience
- Its good practice to have 'backward compatibility'
- Potential clients visiting this site may question our development skills. (Truth is that all the sites we have developed up to now are IE6 compatible)
Since the announcement that 37signals will no longer support IE6 we can see a trend developing with developers dropping its support. IE6 is way out of date with current web standards, in our opinion it is like creating a windows program which needs to support DOS. Surely it is time to move on?
Initially we felt a bit of stress by dropping IE6 but now that our site is almost complete, and with the features we plan to implement, we are glad that we don't have to dedicate hours and hours of time to make the features compatible with the old beast. We also looked at the statistics of all the websites that we have developed and have noticed a steady decline in Explorer 6 users. In fact some sites have less than 30% of the users using it.
We know that we will get some flaming for it and that we have potentially lost 30% - 60% of possible readers but we are not too worried. Hopefully more and more developers will start doing the same so that one day the possible loss of readers is only 20%.
So for those who are currently on Internet Explorer 6 and have manged to read this post we strongly encourage you to upgrade!
You will be thanking us for it if you do.
59 Comments
IE6 can go piss up a rope.
Yes! No flaming here. Theres only one way to move forward. And we have to do it all together. Down with IE6
Im not flaming, but 30% is a big number. The reason 37signals doesnt support IE6 is because they are not just a web site, theyre a web application provider. That absolutely requires a certain amount of standards-compliance to get the job done.
Arent plain old web sites a little different, and doesnt that mean that more effort should be given to be compatible at least one version behind? This is nothing like worrying about backward compatibility for IE5.
I didnt want to be the only one to say it, but Ive said it. Until IE7 is an *automatic* update, people are going to be perfectly happy with IE6 on Windows XP for years to come.
Ive been waiting for the day IE dies. Cant come soon enough for us.
ha. good timing. i just finished a blog on the same topic lastnight:
http://www.8164.org/dear-ie6/
@Omnichad Thanks for your valid comment. I was only using 37signals to identify a trend that I think will start to spread, regardless of whether it is a blog or an application.
Well since the launch of this only 10 of those have been using IE and only 2% of those visitors have been IE 6 users which is a great surprise! Now I am sure that that number will grow but considering the amount of hits we have already received it is an interesting statistic in our opinion. It is something we will be watching as this site (hopefully) grows.
Im not agree with you, for some reasons, for example when u publishing something it must work with platform and now most common is IE6. i know its pain in the ass to CSS for IE6 too. but we must support all ppl and we souldnt skip the problem because solving is hard.
to hell with IE7 too!
My coworker created this beautiful IE poopstain after another grueling session of testing and hacking.
Your bravery is inspiring!
http://digg.com/programming/Internet_Explorer_is_the_shiz
I admire that! For those of us who are freelancers, its a bit too frightening to cut possible profits by so much, but at the same time, if IE6 were successfully abolished, the time I spend coding could probably be halved! I took a peek at your site in IE6, and I love the little banner at the top suggesting firefox. Very discrete, but if everyone added something ilke that to their websites, maybe IE6 users would feel the pressure to upgrade a bit more than if developers just struggle to make things work for them, without pointing out how hard IE6 makes things! Cheers to you =)
Way to go its About time to drop it
its been a while i do not care of IE6 anymore. I do not check if my designs or my sites feature works in IE6 hELL I DONT care. I think to stop people from using IE6 is starts from us developers and designers. Lets stop supporting IE6! lets stop developing website that looks good in IE6. Let the people realized that its time to switch to the new browsers. and burn the IE6 to hell.
I really, really wish that we, as designers, could drop IE6 completely. But no matter how strong you think your argument is, the response is always the same: YOU NEED TO DESIGN FOR YOUR END-USERS.
Fact: a large proportion of web users are NOT tech-savvy (higher than the 30% you mention, Id wager... unless you look at high-profile global sites like the big news organisations then I doubt youre getting a truly representative view of the web community as a whole). They have no clue what an auto-update or even a web browser is. All they know is that they click on the blue e icon and the internet appears.
This is an audience you need to cater to. Its professionally negligent to have a site thats completely broken for a third of all the people visiting it - how would you feel if you went to see a movie and couldnt get in the screen because they made the door 4 feet tall, based on the assumption that 60-70 per cent of all the moviegoers at that theatre were kids?
Its fine to have FEATURES of the design that will only work in standards-compliant browsers (nice, anti-aliased transparent graphics, more advanced CSS effects, etc.) but its perfectly feasible to serve up an IE-specific stylesheet that offers a slightly different layout (which looks just as nice) for people who dont realise theyre using a terrible browser. After all, they wont miss what theyve never seen. But to exclude thousands of people entirely, or to offer up a deliberately sub-par experience just because itd take an extra hour or two to fix the problems? Lazy, slipshod, inexcusable.
(Please note that Im in no way attacking you personally. Im lamenting the worrying trend amongst designers to force the user into changing their browsing habits just so they can see a parallax scrolling background or a floaty logo. Thats not good design practice in my eyes.)
Oh my god!! Insic say it all!! Im done with IE6!! but IE7 actually ROCK!! (no PNG issue, thats what bother me the most :P)
@Mike
We totally agree with you on some aspects. When we create websites for clients we still make sure that it works 100% in IE 6 because in most cases it is our client who is using IE!!
I think that the reason that a whopping 30% of users still use IE 6 is because we (designers / developers) are not encouraging them to upgrade. If we dont start some time, then in 5 years time we will still be cursing the issue of IE 6 and its many limitations. There has got to come a time when we halt support for the dinosaur.
In my eyes that is not bad design or business practice in any way. If you look at any company who is trying to keep up with the times they will no longer support an older version of their product.
I can use Microsoft itself as an example. Try phoning for Internet Explorer 6 support...... Or the accounting firm ACCPAC, they cut support of their programs which are 2 versions old.
Lastly, and I think the most important point, it also depends on your target market. We created this site knowing that the majority of visitors will be tech savvy. If you were to run a site such as Amazon, then of course you will need complete cross browser compatibility. But in our opinion a site such as twitter should encourage browser upgrades, ie. If their users know how to send an SMS to their computer they have the technical capability of upgrading their browser - It seems that Carsonified agree with this, check our their twitter site themattinator.com in IE 6.
I hope that makes sense.
I understand your grievances but surely cutting out IE6 users is a little extreme? Take last month for example, 37% of internet users were using IE6 (source: http://www.thecounter.com/stats/2008/July/browser.php). Yes its annoying having to specify a whole new sheet just for IE6, but really there arent that many things that cannot be accomplished. Ok so you like floaty transparent PNGs? Use the new v2 PNGFix which now fixes IE6s disability with background positioning. So you like outlines around each of your comments, whats wrong with a little clear:both; ? It really isnt as hard as it looks, as Im sure youre aware, but dont you think it comes across as just plain lazy? Like you said, "in most cases it is our client who is using IE!!"... Yet, when your potential client visits your site, 37% of them have a horrible experience. Being compatible with the second largest browser in existence shouldnt be an option - it should be a given for any website within the public domain.
(I even had to log on through my remote server to post this - which happens to run IE6!)
@Stuart and all the IE6-compliant responses:
Good points allround guys. However, I have to agree with those who say that arent we shooting ourselves in the foot by not pushing forward?
Do modern video games still run on old hardware? Could you imagine what modern video games would look like if they were still forced to support DirectX 3 or something?
You need to push your users, otherwise, theyll simply sit back and do nothing. Thats how the government does it with emission-based taxes for vehicles.
Personally, I would give them the same page that a screen-reader would get. After all, if they seem to have no need or care for modern javascript anyway, so its not like theyre missing anything. ;)
Riza said: Im not agree with you, for some reasons, for example when u publishing something it must work with platform and now most common is IE6. i know its pain in the ass to CSS for IE6 too. but we must support all ppl and we souldnt skip the problem because solving is hard. ----
If nobody is paying me to do it, no IE support. I tell clients up-front about stuff like rounded corners that they love to ask for so much "Those corners will be square in IE. If you want rounded corners that can be stage 2, inserting rounded corner .gif images via server-side code and/or javascript. This will be charged by the hour."
continued As canvas, web fonts, css gradients, svg support and other modern standards become more reliable Im sure that part of my proposals will grow an grow and grow. IE will be SOL if prototype and scriptaculous create new killer features that they didnt feel like making work in IE6. I wont be putting in the extra effort to hack it to work with IE6. Why? Because it will take dozens of hours that the client will complain about paying for! In my region the best projects I can hope for are $600 - $1400 with 1 month to get them done. Im not going to waste $600 to $1000 worth of my time trying to make the IE6 experience as good as the Firefox/Safari/Opera/Konqueror experience.
Increase maximum post length, not enough characters to rant properly.
List words, characters not allowed under the comment form so I dont have to do so much trial and error and editing next time.
its a bit of a tough one, but bottom-line is what Mike said. Youre designing for the end-user.
I think the best solution is to teach the end-users on the benefits on standards obeying browsers.
I read somewhere from a developer saying he wont hack for ie - reason being that the effort it will take him to do so is way more than the effort it will take the user to upgrade their browser.
May IE6 rot. Im glad Microsoft finally realized that they need to conform to web standards and fully support CSS.
I salute you sirs, for taking the initiative and making this decision. I wish all developers / design houses / companies took this stance. If it happened, those troglodytes that still use IE6 would be forced to evolve.
I cant count the number of times Ive had to clean up bad code made by other so called developers when doing contract work. Please, let IE6 die along with bad code techniques (tables, bleh) with it.
My sentiments exactly... Personally, I would like to see IE take a hike altogether!
I think its a bit too early to stop supporting ie6. Just because theres still lots of users... As a webdeveloper it will deliver me too much critics...
But I agree... ie6 sucks deep... just a matter of time!
I find it rather annoying to keep my IE pages the same way they look in Firefox. Little inconsistencies and pixels off here and there. That and CSS3 isnt supported even by IE7. Lame.
I do find it rather tempting just to say fuck it and forget about IE completely, but I always feel the need to cater to the lowest common denominator of web browsers because many dolts dont know that the web is Serious Business.
What exactly do you mean by not supporting IE6? Are you going to actively block IE6 visitors or do you just mean that they will suffer some cosmetic degradation? Surely the latter just comes with the territory of a luddite who fails to upgrade? The former - blocking - is of course unacceptable.
I am browsing your site fine with IE6. I hope youre not going to block us IE6 users from your content. ps as long as running multiple verisons of IE on the same pc is a problem, some of us web developers need to have a seperate pc for IE6 and I just happen to reserve this onw for browsing.
@bikeman, we dont block them. The users just dont experience a good layout cosmetically.
"I read somewhere from a developer saying he wont hack for ie - reason being that the effort it will take him to do so is way more than the effort it will take the user to upgrade their browser. "
That is a blatant nonsense; for a typical site there is one developer but may be thousands of users, plus we are supposed to be professionals who know how to do this, the users are amateurs who may not have a clue.
That said I support the OP decision for their own website with knowledge of their target audience and with themselves as the end client, bravo.
If you are planning on doing the same for client websites then clearly it has to be based on _their_ target audience and _their_ informed business decision, which may lead to a totally different conclusion.
For the wider "ditch IE6" discussion; while I sympathise with the sentiment it reminds me of many posts I saw pre IE7 along the lines of "if only all browser manufacturers got together and agreed to conform to standards". That would be good for the world, but not necessarily good for our business as web developers since it just makes it easier for amateurs/automated programs to take our place. It is the very complexity of the environment that creates a market for professional devlopment, dont dream of doing yourself out of a job, I saw lets have more browsers, more oddities and more standards then the true professionals can shine through ;)
if you are not a professional web developer, then ignore the above and push for IE6 to die, it is evil.
Jihad on ie6
You can still support IE6 with a bit of concentration, if you understand a simple set of rules. I only ever need the occasional display: inline. Otherwise generally avoid margins and carefully work out widths.
Why the huge deal?
Okay agreed sometimes you hit something that just doesnt make sense and causes a real headache, but thats where http://www.positioniseverything.net/ comes in handy.
Yes IE6 7 are a pain, but people use them. over 27% of the users to my companies sites still use IE6.
Just made the same decision and sent out an email to all of the business owners in our area with the contents of our blog post regarding this in hopes that they will upgrade. It is my mission to kill IE6 in 2009. As designers we are the reason why it is still around and unless we make a big enough stink people will never upgrade...
http://www.bluefishdesignstudio.com/index.php?/blog/articles/a_few_changes_for_2009/
M.
I actually made a post about this on my site, and have stopped support of IE6 - now for that site my main business is not through the site its not much of an issue...
anyway you can see it here if you are interested....
http://www.svgonline.co.uk/index.php/help-me-kill-ie-6/
I hate hate hate IE6 and I would love to see it snuffed out. Thing is, I work in First line Tech support for an ISP in britain. Im shocked at how many customers are still using IE6. Believe it or not even the Pcs In our office all have IE6! We cant upgrade it though due to restrictions on the systems. What a bummber, looks like IE6 will leave its stench in the corridors of the web for a long time guys.
Internet Explorer is monogamous in nature with regards to javascript and CSS, you can only write CSS / javascript for IE but it wont work with the others, talk about a single commitment.
Personally i preffer a slutty browsers that can work the same code.
I love you firefox, safari, opera, chrome you make javascript and css look /work beautiful.
I have fucking had it with IE6 and am sick and tired of it holding back any cool design I come up with. The background images cant be transparent, unless someone can tell me why this site http://www.aroundthetownhvac.com/content looks find in IE7, IE8, and Firefox but in IE 6 it is a total mess with the css and the background images. Seriously, they need to ban it. Someone needs to start a petition to completely banish it from the Web.
hey I had to write a little bit about this on my blog as well http://www.robbuti.com/blog/ban-ie6-get-with-the-times/ (contains a shout out to We Are not Freelancers w/link to this page). Does anyone know of a good script that will show up across the whole screen and let the user know that my site does not support IE6 and tell them to upgrade to IE7 if they are using IE6? Thank you in advance!
Our site is down to 10% IE users of any kind - and less than half of that is IE6 (via Google Analytics)
Needless to say the only IE6 support I put in was a yellow bar that shows up at the top of the page urging user to upgrade.
The biggest problem I face with dropping IE6 support is the corporate world. Many companies are still running XP and IE6 on all or most of their computers (ironically enough, its usually for security reasons).
Hopefully enough designers pushing against IE6 will force companies to simply drop this policy. My portfolio site does not work properly in IE6 but my Blog does (for the most part... some margin issues, but nothing major... last I checked)
Anyone ever feel like the IE6 standards are always shifting? hah.
I hate Internet explorer. I just update the internet explorer to get tag Manu like firebox have but really it sucks. It has lot of bugs and error. I hate to use IE again. I move myself to FIREFOX and happy with it.
i use to work with Fire Fox and Opera, IE is of no use,
I think the IE is not used by most of the internet users because the IE is very slow as compare to the Fire Fox and Opera . but the is used by the designers to properly check their design.
There is a time when i use IE 6 to explore internet but after using Firefox i had to admit that IE 6 is nothing as compared to Fire Fox. As compare to IE6, Fire fox is much better, realiable and fast internet browser.
i think there are so many reasons for not supporting IE 6. like IE 6 do not support for new css functionality, limited support of html and css in general, Security holes which can be used to steal information and many more
I just dont get why anyone would CHOOSE to use IE6 when there are clearly so many other (and better) choices all around you.
@Sheree,
I also dont see any reason but there can be a situation where someone might want to test a website or the features which are implemented using some old techniques for the purpose of backward compatibility, or some other testing reasons.
Yes, there also exist IE fans!
IE 6 has got so may problems that it just pisses off. It is a total hell to use IE 6 nowadays.
Hi,
Regardless of the bugs in IE 6, it was great because of light weighted and it was speedy. However, I would agree that IE 6 still useful because of so many reason like testing several web pages for backward compatibility since so many people yet use IE 6.
www.cyberdesignz.com
Most definitely down with IE6. If people still choose to use IE6, then they must live with the consequences, and I certainly wont design for IE6 anymore.
Hi,
Using IE 6 is good for the several reasons in web testing and and compatibility issues. However, from the end user point of view; IE 6 is not used anymore since IE 8 is in along with so many other browsers.
I have stopped designing for IE 6 as well. I tell my clients this, explain to them (truthfully!) what this means, and theyre fine with it. After stating the facts about web standards and backwards compatibility, then telling them they cant have the best website I can give them if they want IE 6 support usually sells it to them.
Also, the only reason Ive ever seen people say about using IE 6 is that fact that its good to use for backwards-compatibility or testing reasons. Isnt that circular logic? If were not using it anymore, then there would be no need to test for it. Problem solved.
Anyway, my team and I dont bend over backwards for a company that refuses to design a browser to Web Standards just because they have market share. (WINDOWS) Ill pass on Tyranny. If you want to check us out, were over at http://www.psdden.com
Hi,
If youre searching for a new heating and air conditioning repair system that meets your business needs, we may have just what youre looking for. American Standards light commercial comfort systems are not only steady performers that will work dependably year in and year out, theyre also easy to install and service because of their application, flexibility and accessibility features.
Mostly people hate IE6 because of its lake of compatibility. But i think Internet Explorer 8 is not as bad. But firefox still my first preference. :) Now UK also avoiding IE and WMP in MS lagtest OS Windows 7.
Most of the people love firefox because of its stability and effective add ons. IE is no more used by professionals. MS should stop IE and introduce new effective browser like firefox and chrome :)
IE 6 is old now and people love browsers like firefox and chrome. Speciall Firefox because of many plugins are available in firefox which are not available in IE 6.
Well i also like to use firefox it provides high speed browsing plus lots of handy addons.
Also IE has some compatibility issues..
As a front end developer I have suffered psychological damage, stress and recurring suicidal thoughts, all because IE6 does not follow W3C standards
well i m not a big fan of IE6 b/c it is full of lot of prob. as compare to other browser...but i like firefox its good